Curse

distilledwill · Oct 20, 2010, 08:23 AM // 08:23

I have been playing this game for 4.5 years and have participated in a grand total of two GvGs. They were shambolic, but fun. I would love to take you up on your offer - but, as I'm sure you're aware, GvG is simply a very difficult format to set up without an effort made to co-ordinate. Even HA you can rock up and hope to find a PUG, but in GvG it takes a fairly decent amount of effort to get enough players together.

I am, at heart, a PvE player. I ABed, and HBed a lot when it was around (even reaching the top 300 players, ZOMG) - but when it comes to GvG I have neglected it, I apologise and will attempt to drag my alliance together to play at some point over the next few months.

Hope to see you on obs soon,

Will

Cool Down · Oct 20, 2010, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Well the only real issue is that those who really play PvP dont want to play with PvE'ers.
It's always like "oh yeah you have to have rank 6 this or that".
It's really kinda discouraging for all of those who want to play, but havent had the time to RA for 4 years

Ariena Najea · Oct 20, 2010, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminarus

You only need 2 people from your guild, can guest 2 randoms and go nuts on henchmen to hit up a GVG. Also a good way to start, as the henchies have pretty decent builds.

Henchies are fine at lower levels, and you should focus more on learning than winning at the beginning regardless. Just remember that they are henchmen after all and aren't 100% reliable, so any build you run should account for that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crimson Robes

I would like to GvG more again. Used to GvG quite often but the players just seem to have...massive objects shoved up their collective rectums

I switched to HA just because the players there seem nicer xD

Anyway, ill give it a shot, poke me if you want to try me out for GvG (ign: Morbid Memories, am 50 fame away from r8, etc). If GvG'ers want new people trying the format, there really should be some guilds set up etc for this, cant expect all us random PvE noobs to just join up with no help and get slaughtered. Although im sure thats what you want in the end

I have always found GvG to be the nicer of the two formats, but then again I have played with a limited number of people in GvG. As for getting help, Team Love is still around I think and they are focused on teaching new players. As for the bold, you can expect to get slaughtered a lot when you start; it's pretty much unavoidable. You will get better though with some practice!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cool Down

Well the only real issue is that those who really play PvP dont want to play with PvE'ers.
It's always like "oh yeah you have to have rank 6 this or that".
It's really kinda discouraging for all of those who want to play, but havent had the time to RA for 4 years

Rank discrimination is a serious issue in HA. Fortunately, the groups that are largely formed by these pugs are usually awful. Even without a PvP guild, the best way to HA is to build your friend's list. Playing to farm fame with gimmicks is not a good way to improve, instead play to improve both your personal and team skills. Playing with the same people regularly helps immensely.

*lemming* · Oct 20, 2010, 08:57 AM // 08:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cool Down

Well the only real issue is that those who really play PvP dont want to play with PvE'ers.
It's always like "oh yeah you have to have rank 6 this or that".
It's really kinda discouraging for all of those who want to play, but havent had the time to RA for 4 years

Rank discrimination has really never been an issue in GvG, since it's more organized than HA pugs and therefore doesn't rely on the first approximation of a rank title to filter people out. As long as you're capable of listening to instructions and are willing to improve, it's surprisingly simple to break through.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

As for getting help, Team Love is still around I think and they are focused on teaching new players. As for the bold, you can expect to get slaughtered a lot when you start; it's pretty much unavoidable. You will get better though with some practice!

kiSu is defunct, unfortunately. However, the initial premise of the venture (connecting aspiring GvGers with high-end players and their feedback) is just as easily available directly.

I'll try to get some IGNs that interested parties can PM for more information.

Crimson Robes · Oct 20, 2010, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

As for the bold, you can expect to get slaughtered a lot when you start; it's pretty much unavoidable. You will get better though with some practice!

As stated i have done a few GvG's (lets say played 40, won 10~15 or so)

But point is, ofcourse you should expect to lose... But wouldnt it better to create teams with a few experienced players, and letting the new players run "bitchbars" like ele etc etc, just till they get the hang of it? Even if its just till they learn how to kite and switch to shieldset xD Someone needs to give people tips and explain the basics, cant just expect people to read a FAQ and just keep doing GvG. Solution? Set up training GvG runs! But ofc that would require work on your part instead of just whining that people should GvG but not REALLY doing anything about it.

I guess i just prefer HA because its easy to pug the last few people (friendslist only gets me up to 6/8 or so usually) and the no splitting makes it easier on tactics.

Space · Oct 20, 2010, 10:05 AM // 10:05

The main problem isn't 'elitism' rather neglect on Anet's behalf allowing retarded builds to be left in the meta for months and months on end when GvG was active. I know that's what drove most of my guild to quit GvG and Guild Wars eventually.

Using henchies is fine for beginner / byob guilds, but to be at least competitive you need 8 people together at once and a vent server which these days is a big ask. Another barrier is skill level. If you want to make the step from being somewhat casual to more competitive you need to be playing with people that you either feel comfortable playing with or are of a similar skill level to you. There just isn't the competitive mid range playerbase to support new players to learn, grow and progress in a natural ladder of progression

I'm glad that they are looking into upping the rewards, however the long term damage was done years ago. It would need a large scale event (such as the Guru Tournament) with tangable rewards to entice people back to GvG and Guild Wars in general and I can't see that kind of support happening again.

Good luck to all those who are trying though. Watching or playing in a GvG between two evenly matched teams is the best part of Guild Wars and the format didn't deserve the state it is in today.

Artisan Archer · Oct 20, 2010, 10:16 AM // 10:16

I also approve of this message.

IGN: Break Fu

fowlero · Oct 20, 2010, 10:22 AM // 10:22

Seems only logical the recent quitter thread on a similar topic is linked to.

http://www.teamquitter.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=21272

Further than that i can only reiterate pming more experienced players for guest/advice. The idea that PvPers are elitist pricks that won't talk to anyone outside their own really is complete bs contained largely to HA.
A large number of players will be willing to helpout.

Calista Blackblood · Oct 20, 2010, 10:24 AM // 10:24

I approve of this message and would love to be part of the revolution.

IGN =Forum name

Aljasha · Oct 20, 2010, 10:25 AM // 10:25

GvG has a very steep learning curve and you will be defeated several times, before learning from your mistakes. If you want to achieve an infusion of new players, you need to offer the majority of the player base enough incentive to keep going. The PvPer finds the most in playing with his or her team and in getting good together, mastering challenges and opposing tactics. For casuals, all these factors are replaced by accessibility, individual rewards etc and ANet needs to make sure it is easy to jump in, have some fun and rewards and jump out without serious commitment.

I fully understand and agree to the OP, but (casual) people won't get drawn into something by reading tutorials and listening to veterans of the format, it needs to be diverting and accessible and without the need to pore over countless articles about high-end PvP. The current GvG is not accessible, and most of the time you meet the same people playing in smurfs or their main guilds over and over again.

SebaZ · Oct 20, 2010, 10:29 AM // 10:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by The PvP Community

This is an open letter, an invitation if you would, to the PvE community to rediscover part of the game that they have long since abandoned and ignored

Give it up. You either are a competitive player or you're not.

Swahnee · Oct 20, 2010, 10:43 AM // 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

Thank you for this; the OP is written wonderfully.

I am actually working on a project to help new (or new to PvP!) players bridge some of the gaps, particularly in the low level arenas. Taking things further, the project has a new perspective on some core PvP topics that I feel are misrepresented to new players. Currently working on a combination of written guides and focused courses for PvP (and a couple PvE) topics based upon my own experiences when I originally started PvP as well as my experience guesting for mid-end GvG. Anyone interested in more information should send me a PM to introduce yourself!

I would also like to sponsor a friendly scrimmage tournament geared for new PvPers in the near future, featuring tiers for similar playing levels as well as in-game prizes for participants. If you are interested in participating and/or are interested in donating prizes, please send me a PM.

GvG is as wonderful as its player base, so give it a try!

This is the way to go! Friendly scrimmage (even 4v4, 5v5, etc) tournaments organized on the web. Also, players dedicated to PvE willing to try GvG for fun will hardly get off their guild to join a training one, so i think it would be nice if they could join cross-guild teams (since you only need two people of the same guild to start a game) and have fun in those kind of scrimmages (they won't be called GvG though

). I also think that GWG could be of great help on this side. Eventually, those interested in jumping into serious GvG will join a more organized guild and start working harder to achieve that goal.

Thank you OP to have started this thread, and good luck to Ariena Najea for his project

Meridon · Oct 20, 2010, 11:02 AM // 11:02

I support this message. Having been into the GvG scene for over a year, I can confirm that the GvG community is not bad at all. In fact, they are all friendly players who like to compete against each other.

This is not like HA and RA, where the people are far worse. Unfortunately, this is often place adventurous PvE'ers end up when they have a peek in the PvP areas.

PvE people, don't be afraid to take some guildies and 4 henchmen into GvG when it's Zquest day! Many people do it. Just play for the fun side of things, and don't expect to win. You'll have a great time.

*lemming* · Oct 20, 2010, 11:15 AM // 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aljasha

GvG has a very steep learning curve and you will be defeated several times, before learning from your mistakes. If you want to achieve an infusion of new players, you need to offer the majority of the player base enough incentive to keep going. The PvPer finds the most in playing with his or her team and in getting good together, mastering challenges and opposing tactics. For casuals, all these factors are replaced by accessibility, individual rewards etc and ANet needs to make sure it is easy to jump in, have some fun and rewards and jump out without serious commitment.

It's almost a guarantee that there's some non-GvGers out there would find it to their liking if they had the opportunity to try it. Most probably won't, but the few who might should have a chance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aljasha

I fully understand and agree to the OP, but (casual) people won't get drawn into something by reading tutorials and listening to veterans of the format, it needs to be diverting and accessible and without the need to pore over countless articles about high-end PvP.

The general tone of complaints in the various threads where PvP has come up in the past few days is that there's too difficult to get into, not that it's inherently poorly designed.

It's also a misconception that there's a lot of reading necessary to excel - outside of the few defining theory articles, most of what you need to know is learned through gameplay.

kedde · Oct 20, 2010, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Approval of the message of course.

As for all the upholds to not try it out.
Just RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing do it.
Jump into it, it ain't that hard if you loosen yourself of all the things you have tying you down.

*lemming* · Oct 20, 2010, 11:32 AM // 11:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crimson Robes

But wouldnt it better to create teams with a few experienced players, and letting the new players run "bitchbars" like ele etc etc, just till they get the hang of it? Even if its just till they learn how to kite and switch to shieldset xD

The first version of kiSu tried this. It stopped working for several reasons.

1. Players really didn't retain much knowledge. Playing a bitch bar usually also implies that the player in question is being microed extensively as not to screw the team up, and that just doesn't do a whole lot for creating players capable of making intelligent decisions and communicating.

2. "Bitch bars" right now are far more demanding than they were two years ago. It's no longer ever the case that you can hide your weakest player on the easiest role and not suffer for it. Losing matches because of one weak link did a lot to dissuade mentors from participating.

3. Players who want to play frontline or backline or runner or ranger don't have the chance to learn how to do so.

In the long run, playing with the same group of players, with some outside advice, has proven much more effective - GeAr exemplifies this principle the best, having gone from a rank 1000 guild to placing 2nd in a monthly automated tournament within the space of a couple of months.

Gruff · Oct 20, 2010, 11:34 AM // 11:34

I started playing gvg's earlier this year in a primarily pve alliance, introduced to the format by old heads that had gvg'd since it's outset.

It's a really rewarding experience even if you don't win everytime there are things to learn and take away from each match. I've found the gvg community far more pleasant to play with and against than the HA crowd and there is next to no trash talk compared with RA or even AB sometimes.

I'd recommend dipping your toe in for anyone, it can be a really good laugh with your mates, plus you are likely to make some new mates in the process.

Ariena Najea · Oct 20, 2010, 11:40 AM // 11:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crimson Robes

...

But point is, ofcourse you should expect to lose... But wouldnt it better to create teams with a few experienced players, and letting the new players run "bitchbars" like ele etc etc, just till they get the hang of it? Even if its just till they learn how to kite and switch to shieldset xD Someone needs to give people tips and explain the basics, cant just expect people to read a FAQ and just keep doing GvG. Solution? Set up training GvG runs! But ofc that would require work on your part instead of just whining that people should GvG but not REALLY doing anything about it.

The problem with being only one new player in an experienced team is that you don't learn everything you need to learn. Assuming you play with seven players who all regularly play; their gameplay will be a well-oiled machine which means you will be the stray cog trying to find its place. Rather than learning what works for you, ultimately you are forced into playing a rigid role. You also miss out on the best of team building, which really only works with players of your own skill level. Experienced players quickly become frustrated with those with less experience, and typically have a hard time remembering the difference at key points. Less experienced players tend to get overwhelmed or lost since they do not have the foundation of the superior. If you want to learn with experienced players, go with a couple friends so that you get a little of everything. Ideally, go with only one or two experienced players to act as group leaders, so that you really get the feel of your new team.

As for your second statement, I am developing both written works as well as special courses (to be completed alone, in a group, or with a mentor) to render in-game training. Perhaps some of the top GvGers could run a few in-game classes on specific topics and record them to be posted for general viewing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crimson Robes

I guess i just prefer HA because its easy to pug the last few people (friendslist only gets me up to 6/8 or so usually) and the no splitting makes it easier on tactics.

HA is somewhat of a less competitive format, and it offers instant entry as opposed to the wait of finding a GvG match. If you are interested in both the HA and GvG formats, I suggest playing GvG when you can fill up (or come close) with friends, and HA when you do not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aljasha

I fully understand and agree to the OP, but (casual) people won't get drawn into something by reading tutorials and listening to veterans of the format, it needs to be diverting and accessible and without the need to pore over countless articles about high-end PvP. The current GvG is not accessible, and most of the time you meet the same people playing in smurfs or their main guilds over and over again.

This is the reason that I would like to run a friendly tournament. While I am in a largely PvE alliance, many players were/are interested in getting into PvP beyond RA and the competitive missions. No one really made a move until I started running in-house scrimmages as well as with some other guilds we know. Playing against each other in a largely even setting helped give everyone a taste of what GvG is like, and helped embolden many to pursue it. From talking with strangers in-game, I can safely say that there are many players interested in what I just described. I feel the most difficult part of PvP is not getting your foot in the door, but rather feeling comfortable with what's inside. GvG is not currently accessible because most incoming players do not know what to expect, have little guidance, and become frustrated by the setup (and waiting) time which typically results in a loss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

It's also a misconception that there's a lot of reading necessary to excel - outside of the few defining theory articles, most of what you need to know is learned through gameplay.

This is very true. While knowing is half the battle, actual experience is underrated by many new PvPers who are misled into thinking your build is the center of how you play. In actuality, builds are far less important than experience and player ability.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gruff

It's a really rewarding experience even if you don't win everytime there are things to learn and take away from each match. I've found the gvg community far more pleasant to play with and against than the HA crowd and there is next to no trash talk compared with RA or even AB sometimes.

I'd recommend dipping your toe in for anyone, it can be a really good laugh with your mates, plus you are likely to make some new mates in the process.

This is an excellent summary. Even if you are only casually interested in GvG, give it a roll on GvG Zaishen day. If you need that PvP title for your HoM 50/50, you can get the Zaishen title quickly from the zcoin and faction reward!

- - - - - - - - -

To add to my previous statements regarding a public tournament, I am looking for a couple of co-directors to help manage things. If you are interested, please send me a PM introducing yourself.

Lord Mip · Oct 20, 2010, 11:48 AM // 11:48

I've really enjoyed GvG at the beginning of GW, in which I did some ranked as well. Unfortunately, when I stepped out and tried to get back in, the community was too closed for me which discouraged me enough to fully focus on PvE.
I'm really glad however that you are welcoming new people into GvG. Once I reach my PvE goals, I might be inclined to search for a guild and restart my GvG career. I hope to see many of you in battle by that time

Missing HB · Oct 20, 2010, 11:55 AM // 11:55

GvG is a fun format to play and would be even more if there were finally a lot more players so i will support the thread. However , we would need a serious reason to make 9/10 of PvE'rs abandon their HoM reward farm to go GvG in my opinion